Chal,

I think Prop 8 passing is a horrible thing. Gay rights is a civil rights issue and being gay is not a choice. I’ve been pretty outspokenly supportive of civil rights issues whether they be gay, racial minorities, women, or immigrant. And I have been outspoken on these issues before this election and I will be after this election.

I have a question for you? What’s ironic about the 70% black vote? What’s the irony that 6.7% (if black people had a 100% turn-out) of one group of California voting yes for a proposition that quite a few others voted yes on. I think the Mormon connection is more ironic in the sense that they in a large part funded it and were in the past outcasts owing to the men in that religion wanting to be able to marry multiple wives. Can you not see the more the irony in that?

I know that the mainstream
press the LA Times and their comrade Kevin Roderick from LA Observed to be exact has been harping on the 70% and I in no way excuse homophobia within the black community, but this constant implication that black people are the lone group who voted for Prop 8 and the sole reason for it passing to me is a bit disturbing.

Black people are individuals. We are not saints. We are not magical. And our purpose is not to be your symbol, whether it be the symbol of evil in regards to Prop 8 or a symbol of good because of the Civil Rights Movement.

In that poll white people were broken into groups by age, class, educational attainment etc…see Mormons are for the large part white, but no one is saying that it is ironic that white people who voted for Obama also voted yes on 8 and that did happen in many sections of California.

Do you know why, because white people are viewed as individuals and that’s good.

Everyone should be viewed as individuals and black people should be viewed as individuals. We are not the borg. Black people being victims of oppression doesn’t give black people some special insight on other oppressed peoples. Just like gay men don’t have some special insight on gender issues.

Black people need to be educated. All of California needs to educated.

I did not see the No on 8 campaigning in the few enclaves that black people live in, but I did see the Yes on 8 campaign.

Again I don’t excuse the yes vote of anyone, but I take exception at this continuous finger pointing by the mainstream media pointing only at the very small LA black community. A community that the mainstream media has had no interest in addressing or talking to or writing about until this one issue.
Browne

I agree with Browne, a poll of some 225 random people and of those that were black roughly 70% said they voted for the measure. Even if every African American voted for this, not just those who happened to be registered, the percentage toward the total State vote would’ve been minimal enough not to swing it either way. That is probably one of the most inaccurate polls cited as raw fact that I’ve ever seen. Perhaps if we repeat it long enough then it simply will be a matter of fact, then?

This has been digested over the past couple days and I’m not sure what you were doing this time. You can choose to be spoonfed “facts” by the LA Times or do some critical thinking for yourself. Or perhaps you should blog from LA where people talk about this in the streets, their homes and work.

Stop already with the bullshit statistics. You wanna blame a group? Blame Christians and not just the kooky Mormons that are easy to vilify.

P.S. The rich irony is that the mainstream Los Angeles blogs are finally talking about Black voters, AFTER the election.

LOLOLOL a comment isn’t even necessary from me, is it browne? ;)

Lezgull,

Feel free to comment. 224 people in LA isn’t the entire black population in the United States and if you want to go ahead and imply that black people are more homophobic owing strictly to race, as if it’s a biological thing in our wiring that’s called being prejudice, just so you know. I mean you can go ahead and be proud of your individual prejudice, but you notice how I am putting that on just you. Not people who share your race or your sexual orientation.

Browne

its a civil rights issue. Are you implying that black people have no history dealing with civil rights? Because for a race that is determined never to forget and to never let anyone else forget the outrageous offenses bestowed to them in our nations history…apparently some black people believe that having civil rights only applies to them, not homosexuals. do you ever just relax?

Browne my friend,
I should point out that the last bit was written by my black(gasp!)girlfriend.

Lezgull,

“Because for a race that is determined never….” you.

Again with this racist bs. We are individuals. Do you get that? Are you going to even try to get that through your head. And no, I’m not going to relax. You relax.

Did you read my first comment. The comment in which I said we are not magical and that black people being involved in the civil right’s movement does not magically make them understand other oppressed people, just like you being a gay man and a racial minority doesn’t give you some special insight on women issues.

See Lezgull you want to fight with me and you don’t want to listen to what I am saying. I am not trying to excuse black voters who voted yes, I’m not trying to excuse homophobia in the black community, I think all races that voted for Prop 8 need some serious education.

BUT I’m not going to set idly by why people make racist comments just because of one of the many facts in regards to Prop 8. I wouldn’t sit by and let people make sexist comment or anti-immigrant comments or homophobic comments, so I’m not letting this go, since that would go against my pattern of standing up against ignorance.

Gay rights is a civil rights issue. I do see the gay rights issue the same as black people’s fight for civil rights. I see everyone’s fight as valid, so why you are attacking me and have been attacking me I’m not sure why. I think we pretty much agree on everything, except I don’t agree on your racism in regards to putting all black people into one group and using us as a scapegoat for a measure that everyone passed, a measure that black people didn’t fund, but people who choose to be Christian did indeed fund.

So since I am in agreement on all of your issues in regards to gay rights and I also agreed the black people who did this were not ok, I also agree that the church is complete bullshit I am assuming what you are waiting for is for me to say is that all black people are evil and need to be burned at the stake as a symbol of this heinous law.

Here’s a memo for you Lezgull. That is not going to happen, so why don’t you go and have a debate with someone who is homophobic instead of just fighting with me (a person who is your ally and talked about gay people and civil rights of gay people and everyone else before Prop 8) simply because I’m the only black person you know online.

I mean if you want to continue to hurl insults at me, I’m totally ok with that, but come on. What’s your real problem with what I’m saying?

Browne

lolol why would a gay man have the name lezgull (in reference to lesbian seagulls)?

I don’t care if you have a black girlfriend Lezgull or what race you are, my statements and how I say things don’t change depending on the race of the person writing them. There are plenty of black people in the world that hate black people. To think only white people can be racist Lezgull (which you seem to be implying) is also racist, just throwing that out there, because that also seems to be a foreign concept to you.

You obviously think this is a joke. I am no longer going to engage you in dialogue.

Browne

um i dont think white people are the only racists out there. look at the high school riots of late, its latino against black. black people hate people.white people hate people. there are racists of all races, some even against their own race. i dont hate anyone. I write what i see. and for your last sentence… amen is the only thing that comes to mind.

first you assumed i was white then you assumed i was a gay man. perhaps assuming isnt your forte.

I never assumed you were white Lezgull. I know that’s your dream, but I never thought you were white. I did think you were a guy, because I thought you implied that you were a guy. Now if you want to try to act like I’m the one with problems, because you like to play this “pretending” game then you go ahead. You know you have your girlfriend post under you name, you aren’t real obvious with your gender, but yet you sort of imply you are another gender.

It is obvious that you have problems that are within the scope of psychiatric help.

And if you think I’m suppose to get that Lezgull is a combination of the word Lesbian and seagull, well, hell I thought Lezgull was your last name. Had I known this was one of those pseudonyms, I probably would be even less interested in talking to you than I am now.

Again what’s this problem you are having with me, oh yeah you’re a prejudice self-hating minority with mental health issues and you need to show people how not like “us” you are.

Great job. I’m waiting for the moderate Obama supporting posse of tolerance to come around to defend your ignorant views right about now.

Seriously I’m done now with this thread.

Browne

self righteous hater

Well, now that the comments have got thoroughly off-track, I’ll drop in my opinion: Yes the POC communities voted for Prop 8 in high numbers, but no, their numbers in total weren’t enough to skew the vote against us. What bigoted population was big enough to do that? Yes, straight, conservative white men. So, if you want to point fingers, there’s a good place to start.

It’s a classic tactic to divide a population with infighting. Blaming black people for this isn’t productive at all. Instead, educating religious populations that this is a Civil and Human Rights issue is more important. Don’t blame any race, blame the organizations who have been pushing for this ban since the beginning. The LDS is a good place to start.

Then swing on over to invalidateprop8.org and give a little cash, y’all.

eclips292, I have to agree that the latin black vote wasn’t the key, but it was a factor. It wasn’t all white bigoted men either. Their lard assed wives with the bible in one hand bobbing and weaving through the parking lots in their bloated suv’s also played a huge roll in how this vote ended up.

Much can be blamed on the religious extremists out there who spread some pretty nasty laws about what would happen if the proposition failed.

None of it is pretty. I am glad to see the overall positive demonstrations and even our own guv’s dismat at the results. IF the protesters keep it sane maybe we can get the justice needed once and for all in the courts to ban the bigotry.

Okay, let’s say the poll had an error rate of 20% in one direction and that it indicates 50% of black voters voted for Prop 8. Also too (as Sarah Palin would say) let’s not say it’s a rich irony that one oppressed minority, given the opportunity to step up to the plate, chooses in large numbers to eliminate a right of another oppressed minority; instead, let’s call it a tragedy.

Lamentably, there is a history of homophobia specific to the black community, be it based in religion or the ridiculous reasoning of black homophobes who claim black people being gay undermines the proliferation of blacks as a race. Whatever tack bigotry takes, I was saddened by the results of that poll and it is relevant to the situation of a black man being elected president in the same election. I’m just a gay white guy who pointed it out.

Personally, I feel that being a member of an oppressed minority has given me insight into the nature of being on the receiving end of oppression. I know what it’s like to be called names and to run faster than people intending to beat me to a bloody pulp because of the gender to which I am attracted. Individuals of a group to an extent can acknowledge, if not adhere to, the notion of a group mentality when deciding how to cast their vote. Gay Republicans’ semantic contortions as they justify their voting records speak to this.

And if you, Browne, can say blacks are individuals as you speak for them as a group, may I speak for the entire gay population for a moment and say that we may not be saintly, especially if we’re priests (joke! sort of,) but there are magical riches we mavericky gay folks are bringin’ to the world? And we’re happy to spread the wealth around.

Personally, I feel that being a member of an oppressed minority…

Good lord……and you wonder why blacks aren’t down with this shit.

Please, for the love of humanity, stop comparing yourself to blacks by using civil rights terminology. It REALLY pisses them off.

Gay Republicans’ semantic contortions as they justify their voting records speak to this.

You mean like Obama/Biden saying Yes to No gay marriage? Talk about your contortionists.

Apologies for choosing to vote on the issues that are most important to me rather than playing the victim card and throwing hissy fits whenever the people’s vote doesn’t go my way.

We gay conservatives are funny like that.

BTW, didn’t I hear something about Democrats winning major victories in a recent election Frankly, I’d still be celebrating that rather than pissing and moaning about one proposition.

Raining on everyone else’s parade isn’t going to win you any converts. Especially those whose vote you just took for granted.

“And if you, Browne, can say blacks are individuals as you speak for them as a group, may I speak for the entire gay population for a moment…” Chal

I’m not speaking for anyone. I am speaking for me. I say all human beings are individuals. Everyone remembers that when it has to do with white people, but they don’t seem to remember that when it has to do with minorities whether they be black or gay or latino or women…

And you don’t get to be a spokesperson for anyone but Chal, you can say whatever you want, but I’m not going to take what you say and assume that other gay people think like you.

And I think Chal that when you say that you being a minority gives you a special insight on issues of fairness it is a slap in the face to progressive white straight white men.

I don’t like this 1980s diversity model that acts like minorities know all and don’t need to be educated on issues of tolerance and people who aren’t members of minority group are the only people who need to be talked to in regards to diversity. We see in this election that isn’t true. The special insight of which you speak Chal and that idea is exactly why many people of color were not educated on gay civil rights issues. Their prejudice assisted in the passage of Prop 8 and people’s prejudice of the magical ethnic person and the falseness of that is what made people think they didn’t have to educate that segment of the community.

Your biology doesn’t make you more understanding your willingness to listen and learn does. I would take a progressive straight white man over a close-minded bisexual minority woman who doesn’t think any day of the week.

I belong to the people who think, that’s the group I’m part of and anyone can be a member.